I enjoyed this post, thanks Fran. I'm feeling pretty burnt out and disheartened by our unschooling journey at the moment. Everything feels hard, nothing feels joyful and I'm questioning and worrying about everything constantly. It was nice to get back to the basics and think about what and why I'm doing all of this!
Oh that sounds like such hard phase you're going through. I think we do need to listen to some of our soubts and worries, and def listen if we stop feeling like things are joyful - it might be a phase, but there might also be some truth there. Sending you lots of love Eleanor!!
Love all of this, Fran! Lol about spaghetti against the wall and ppl thinking top down education isn’t that 🤪 So spot on that we have no control over what gets “imputed” into another human based on our efforts. So good!
I’m so glad that you mentioned negotiation! It gets a bad wrap when discipline is discussed, as in “never negotiate with your child.” However, there's a big difference between saying no and then being gradually worn down, and having a discussion where everyone's needs are expressed, leading to a plan that works for all. These discussions are good for families in general, but they are necessary when raising a PDA kid. I found it so much easier to talk and come to an agreement than to give a hard no, and then try to enforce it. You both/all learn more with agreements as well.
Yes! Ok my experience with PDA (my own and possibly my child's) was that for several years hard nos backfired massively, AND negotiation was super hard because he was just unable to stay regulated long enough to actually come to an agreement, or he was so inflexible around certain things. This was so super hard because my daughter was much more able to discuss and compromise and my son simply could not. Now they are older and it is so much easier. And the lesson I'm drawing here is that all those times we tried were worth it because they provided a ton of experience for us all to get better at it, even though at the time it felt like we were failing. Like you said above, we learned so much more from attempting to discuss and compromise and negotiate, even if it felt very imperfect, than from me just deciding.
Great post! Would love to hear more about how you move forward when certain situations aren’t working for everyone. I do wonder if unschooling is helping or harming our relationships, honestly. But don’t want to put them in school to see the alternative right now (and they don’t want to). But there are some days that are just really hard. Hoping it improves as they get older!
I’m in my 8th year of homeschooling and up until 2 years ago, would have called us unschoolers and I’ve read all the books, blogs and ideas. What you’ve written is lovely.
But in practice, I’m well and truly burnt out. Our teenager decided to go to school which was such a relief. The skilled, specialised teachers have been amazing. I feel so lucky that he was brave enough to go back (he did 4 years in and 6 out and now in 2nd year back). And lucky that he can tolerate some of the tricky bits. We’ve had some issues that were challenging and have realised that firm boundaries and guidance are more helpful than endless negotiation and relying too much on trust as teenagers do not always think things through in expected ways or live up to our ideals.
I’ve done a 180 with our 10 year old. A lot more directed school work. It’s an eclectic approach, with a lot of life learning but I’m done with ‘all in’ unschooling. The potential for getting stuck in a rut and not seeing our kids building skills and confidence and progressing in enough areas is too high.
It can probably work well for highly motivated and goal orientated children and parents. But I’m also seeing a lot of stagnation and lack of focus in our family and lots of our friends - most unschooly but with increasing amounts of direction.
Unschooling is a *lot* of pressure on parents - usually the mother - because it all comes down to us for taking this on and doing something so radical. Im seeing a lot of divorce or marriages well beyond breaking point after 8 years in homeschooling circles. Sure, schooled parents’ marriages struggle as well, but the pressure in us homeschooling mums feels like next level and too many of my friends are breaking too.
I really don’t think society is set up for this radical change yet. I wish it was. I think it’s a great approach for younger years and some people I know have had success all the way through - usually when their child locks on to a strong interest or focus to keep their motivation high. Sometimes it’s not working in the same family for siblings though if they don’t have the same strong interest to drive them.
I don’t know what the solution is. Very few people write about the problems in enough detail IMHO. No one writes about what to do when your 16 yo turns round and says why haven’t you taught me properly? I can tell you it’s confronting! There are explanations of course. But if they suddenly decide they want a certain course and they aren’t prepared for it, it’s a massive responsibility that is on us.
I’m not meaning to critique your writing or work specifically or be confronting. There aren’t too many ways to express these thoughts though - I removed myself from my local (national) unschooling fb group for suggesting that checking in with curriculum levels every couple of years, and insisting on some structured work every now and then if the child is continually avoiding tricky academic things, can help avoid problems later. I was told they would delete anything which appeared to encourage parents to use any coercion. I asked for help with wording to say how do I convey that in an acceptable manner and they said they don’t support any use of forced learning. So I left. Very few of my experienced unschooly friends who have moved away from unschooling stay in those groups. They can easily become echo chambers.
I think new parents should be very aware that a lot of parents do give up on that ideology and the groups, and some lie or fudge about how committed they are to strict application of the ‘rules’.
Anyway, that’s enough of my negative Nelly moaning. Hopefully your work helps people to make a greater success of it than I could manage.
Thanks so much for your reply and your incredibly thoughtful response article. Believe me, it was an incredible piece of work and definitely made me feel seen and heard.
I used to be so positive and excited, passionate even, about all homeschooling. I wish I could get some of that back, mainly for my 9 yo’s benefit as we are still committed to homeschooling for a lot of reasons (mainly that I think public school as it is now is boring and a waste of time, and because she does a lot of dance, gymnastics and circus classes and won’t have the time and may not have the energy for it all if she was at school) but also my own benefit as it is what I do everyday! Also to support my homeschooling friends better too as I feel like I’m such a negative Nelly about the all too obvious flaws I keep experiencing and seeing.
Sorry it took so long to write again. My settings on Substack are weird and sometimes I can comment and other times (laptop) it won’t let me.
Steph I really appreciate you writing this, and I hope people read your comment because it's absolutely valid. We are not radical unschoolers and it sounds like a lot of the fb groups you were in are perhaps radical unschooling groups? I've been in those groups and had to leave because I thought some of the advice was seriously harmful. I'm very concerned about educational neglect in unschooling circles, and I've written a post about when homeschooling goes wrong - you should check it out if you feel like it :) I do a fair bit of critiquing unschooling, and I think a lot of your points above are reasonable! That said, I think it's so personal, right? I use the word unschooling broadly but I would say we are consent-based and self-directed, if I had to specify. We started off much more structured and homeschooly and sort of eased ourselves into what we do now, and we have ongoing conversations about whether the kids feel they are doing well, engaged, learning and happy. I totally acknowledge that for many people this sort of thing is going to be hard/impossible for a variety of reasons. I also think it can work really well for some kids and some families. We are lucky because my children have access to a self-directed learning centre, where they can take classes or do projects with other children. I try not to share too much that is specific about my children, so perhaps the post above is not as detailed as it could be. I agree that some versions of unschooling, especially when it gets very dogmatic and when parents are afraid to voice their opinions or push their child towards certain things, can be super problematic. I also think it's possible to unschool and provide a really rich education and life experience, but it's absolutely not easy and not all children will be receptive to it. So again, it's not for everyone and it's also not easy and to be fair I think many of us homeschoolers are burnt out and give way too much of ourselves to this project. A lot to talk about here and thanks again for bringing this up!
Great post Fran! Can you recommend an ASL class on outschool? My 12 year old is looking for one.
I’m also wondering how you are managing just having moved back to the US, given the rise of fascism. Are you looking to move abroad again? I really considered it for us, but concluded that these are really tough ages to uproot them from their friends and established community structures…
It's been super weird to come back to.. this. But also i feel that it's important to stay and not run away just bc things are hard right now. We're also lucky to be in a state and area that is predominantly leftie/progressive. And I hear you about uprooting them from friends.. i think this is especially tough for homeschoolers and my children, especially P, have been negatively impacted by all of our moving around. Of course it depends on the child, but for ours it has been super tough as they got older.
I hear that! We considered moving last summer when we were forced into a large unexpected remodel, and I just couldn't see uprooting my 12 year old in particular. Friends are so important to her right now.
I moved a lot as a kid, and it was hard. It also influenced me in ways that were positive I think, and gave me the courage to move to new places and even new countries in my early 20s. :) So, ups and downs.
I don't think that link works for the ASL class, can you send me another?
I have so many questions 😊. Do you purposely think about/include daily, monthly, yearly (etc.) rituals? And if a child is reluctant to participate what next? My thinking is that rituals are part of the human condition in some capacity, and they are grounding, so homeschooling in a siloed culture calls for some purposeful togetherness and connection. But rituals can also be a source of coercion especially when a child isn't up for it.
Where are YOU in the day? How do you balance being available for pursuit of knowledge and learning partnership with not being "on call" all the time. What does a balance of freedom look like from the perspective of what you do throughout the day I guess?
Where am I in the day, good question! We have a relatively busy week in that my kids attend various groups and have online commitments and see friends and do sport. I wake up early so I can get writing or reading done. They’re not usually up until 9ish unless we’re going somewhere early. Some days we’re out all day. Other days the mornings are busiest because we all have more energy in the morning and I make myself available to whatever they want to do - projects, play, going to the library, etc. I may also plan something or offer an idea of something they might like. I do make a monthly list of potential activities/projects to offer on days when we’re home, but usually they have something they are working on and I support them. Or we plan an outing. If we’re home in the afternoon I try to make some time for me to do work or gardening or housework and they do their own thing independently for a few hours. Sometimes there is sport/theatre/math to go to, or a play date. L spends time with his grandparents one afternoon a week so I can take P to various things. On Friday afternoons we usually have a bunch of kids over to play. So we have quite a predictable weekly routine, with occasional changes. The weekends are more chill, my husband is home (he’s away all week) and I step back a bit and he is more involved with the kids. Or we might do something altogether. Let me know if I missed anything!! I will say that for several years I felt very burnt out. Homeschooling little ones is tough, unless you have a ton of help and support. With older kids and kids who are now much more able to regulate, discuss, engage with their own things - it’s night and day in my experience. Still demanding, but not in the same all-consuming way.
Thanks for the window into your days 🙂. My kids are newly 8 and 5, so a very different season and I've definitely felt some burnout this time of year for the past few years. Less this one though as they are so much better at playing together and moving through conflict without me! I don't consider myself an unschooler in practice, though I inhabit much of the ethos of freedom as it deeply resonates.
Rituals - yes we have seasonal things we do and family traditions. I keep a list of them on an excel sheet and add new things when I feel like it. They mostly come from my own cultural traditions and then some new ones I’ve wanted to start for my family. They are absolutely not compulsory! If my kids don’t wanna join in, I’ll do them myself. Or I might invite a friend over and do them together.. if I notice they never want to participate I’ll make the ritual my own ritual! But usually our traditions are things the kids look forward to and that are enjoyable.
I enjoyed this post, thanks Fran. I'm feeling pretty burnt out and disheartened by our unschooling journey at the moment. Everything feels hard, nothing feels joyful and I'm questioning and worrying about everything constantly. It was nice to get back to the basics and think about what and why I'm doing all of this!
Oh that sounds like such hard phase you're going through. I think we do need to listen to some of our soubts and worries, and def listen if we stop feeling like things are joyful - it might be a phase, but there might also be some truth there. Sending you lots of love Eleanor!!
Love all of this, Fran! Lol about spaghetti against the wall and ppl thinking top down education isn’t that 🤪 So spot on that we have no control over what gets “imputed” into another human based on our efforts. So good!
I’m so glad that you mentioned negotiation! It gets a bad wrap when discipline is discussed, as in “never negotiate with your child.” However, there's a big difference between saying no and then being gradually worn down, and having a discussion where everyone's needs are expressed, leading to a plan that works for all. These discussions are good for families in general, but they are necessary when raising a PDA kid. I found it so much easier to talk and come to an agreement than to give a hard no, and then try to enforce it. You both/all learn more with agreements as well.
Yes! Ok my experience with PDA (my own and possibly my child's) was that for several years hard nos backfired massively, AND negotiation was super hard because he was just unable to stay regulated long enough to actually come to an agreement, or he was so inflexible around certain things. This was so super hard because my daughter was much more able to discuss and compromise and my son simply could not. Now they are older and it is so much easier. And the lesson I'm drawing here is that all those times we tried were worth it because they provided a ton of experience for us all to get better at it, even though at the time it felt like we were failing. Like you said above, we learned so much more from attempting to discuss and compromise and negotiate, even if it felt very imperfect, than from me just deciding.
Great post! Would love to hear more about how you move forward when certain situations aren’t working for everyone. I do wonder if unschooling is helping or harming our relationships, honestly. But don’t want to put them in school to see the alternative right now (and they don’t want to). But there are some days that are just really hard. Hoping it improves as they get older!
I’m in my 8th year of homeschooling and up until 2 years ago, would have called us unschoolers and I’ve read all the books, blogs and ideas. What you’ve written is lovely.
But in practice, I’m well and truly burnt out. Our teenager decided to go to school which was such a relief. The skilled, specialised teachers have been amazing. I feel so lucky that he was brave enough to go back (he did 4 years in and 6 out and now in 2nd year back). And lucky that he can tolerate some of the tricky bits. We’ve had some issues that were challenging and have realised that firm boundaries and guidance are more helpful than endless negotiation and relying too much on trust as teenagers do not always think things through in expected ways or live up to our ideals.
I’ve done a 180 with our 10 year old. A lot more directed school work. It’s an eclectic approach, with a lot of life learning but I’m done with ‘all in’ unschooling. The potential for getting stuck in a rut and not seeing our kids building skills and confidence and progressing in enough areas is too high.
It can probably work well for highly motivated and goal orientated children and parents. But I’m also seeing a lot of stagnation and lack of focus in our family and lots of our friends - most unschooly but with increasing amounts of direction.
Unschooling is a *lot* of pressure on parents - usually the mother - because it all comes down to us for taking this on and doing something so radical. Im seeing a lot of divorce or marriages well beyond breaking point after 8 years in homeschooling circles. Sure, schooled parents’ marriages struggle as well, but the pressure in us homeschooling mums feels like next level and too many of my friends are breaking too.
I really don’t think society is set up for this radical change yet. I wish it was. I think it’s a great approach for younger years and some people I know have had success all the way through - usually when their child locks on to a strong interest or focus to keep their motivation high. Sometimes it’s not working in the same family for siblings though if they don’t have the same strong interest to drive them.
I don’t know what the solution is. Very few people write about the problems in enough detail IMHO. No one writes about what to do when your 16 yo turns round and says why haven’t you taught me properly? I can tell you it’s confronting! There are explanations of course. But if they suddenly decide they want a certain course and they aren’t prepared for it, it’s a massive responsibility that is on us.
I’m not meaning to critique your writing or work specifically or be confronting. There aren’t too many ways to express these thoughts though - I removed myself from my local (national) unschooling fb group for suggesting that checking in with curriculum levels every couple of years, and insisting on some structured work every now and then if the child is continually avoiding tricky academic things, can help avoid problems later. I was told they would delete anything which appeared to encourage parents to use any coercion. I asked for help with wording to say how do I convey that in an acceptable manner and they said they don’t support any use of forced learning. So I left. Very few of my experienced unschooly friends who have moved away from unschooling stay in those groups. They can easily become echo chambers.
I think new parents should be very aware that a lot of parents do give up on that ideology and the groups, and some lie or fudge about how committed they are to strict application of the ‘rules’.
Anyway, that’s enough of my negative Nelly moaning. Hopefully your work helps people to make a greater success of it than I could manage.
Sincerely,
Steph
Thanks so much for your reply and your incredibly thoughtful response article. Believe me, it was an incredible piece of work and definitely made me feel seen and heard.
I used to be so positive and excited, passionate even, about all homeschooling. I wish I could get some of that back, mainly for my 9 yo’s benefit as we are still committed to homeschooling for a lot of reasons (mainly that I think public school as it is now is boring and a waste of time, and because she does a lot of dance, gymnastics and circus classes and won’t have the time and may not have the energy for it all if she was at school) but also my own benefit as it is what I do everyday! Also to support my homeschooling friends better too as I feel like I’m such a negative Nelly about the all too obvious flaws I keep experiencing and seeing.
Sorry it took so long to write again. My settings on Substack are weird and sometimes I can comment and other times (laptop) it won’t let me.
Keep up your amazing work.
Steph I really appreciate you writing this, and I hope people read your comment because it's absolutely valid. We are not radical unschoolers and it sounds like a lot of the fb groups you were in are perhaps radical unschooling groups? I've been in those groups and had to leave because I thought some of the advice was seriously harmful. I'm very concerned about educational neglect in unschooling circles, and I've written a post about when homeschooling goes wrong - you should check it out if you feel like it :) I do a fair bit of critiquing unschooling, and I think a lot of your points above are reasonable! That said, I think it's so personal, right? I use the word unschooling broadly but I would say we are consent-based and self-directed, if I had to specify. We started off much more structured and homeschooly and sort of eased ourselves into what we do now, and we have ongoing conversations about whether the kids feel they are doing well, engaged, learning and happy. I totally acknowledge that for many people this sort of thing is going to be hard/impossible for a variety of reasons. I also think it can work really well for some kids and some families. We are lucky because my children have access to a self-directed learning centre, where they can take classes or do projects with other children. I try not to share too much that is specific about my children, so perhaps the post above is not as detailed as it could be. I agree that some versions of unschooling, especially when it gets very dogmatic and when parents are afraid to voice their opinions or push their child towards certain things, can be super problematic. I also think it's possible to unschool and provide a really rich education and life experience, but it's absolutely not easy and not all children will be receptive to it. So again, it's not for everyone and it's also not easy and to be fair I think many of us homeschoolers are burnt out and give way too much of ourselves to this project. A lot to talk about here and thanks again for bringing this up!
Trying to subscribe but there seems to be an issue
Hi! What is the issue exactly? If you describe it to me I might be able to help.
But I appreciate the response.
And would like to share one of my short stories involving a child and giving them better things to dream about 👍🏿👊🏿
https://open.substack.com/pub/jdieu7466r9hdv38/p/dreams-of-steel-stone-and-sky?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=5odzap
Honestly I think it was just a slow server.
I went back to your page about a minute ago and this time no issues subscribing. 🤷🏿
Great post Fran! Can you recommend an ASL class on outschool? My 12 year old is looking for one.
I’m also wondering how you are managing just having moved back to the US, given the rise of fascism. Are you looking to move abroad again? I really considered it for us, but concluded that these are really tough ages to uproot them from their friends and established community structures…
this was the class she took, I think we'll sign up again in September. https://outschool.com/classroom/f322ede0-bbb5-4bfe-917c-621b99b3ba1a?learnerUid=4a87820f-1c75-4721-8744-d264d474161e
It's been super weird to come back to.. this. But also i feel that it's important to stay and not run away just bc things are hard right now. We're also lucky to be in a state and area that is predominantly leftie/progressive. And I hear you about uprooting them from friends.. i think this is especially tough for homeschoolers and my children, especially P, have been negatively impacted by all of our moving around. Of course it depends on the child, but for ours it has been super tough as they got older.
I hear that! We considered moving last summer when we were forced into a large unexpected remodel, and I just couldn't see uprooting my 12 year old in particular. Friends are so important to her right now.
I moved a lot as a kid, and it was hard. It also influenced me in ways that were positive I think, and gave me the courage to move to new places and even new countries in my early 20s. :) So, ups and downs.
I don't think that link works for the ASL class, can you send me another?
try this! https://outschool.com/classes/asl-2-beginner-american-sign-language-class-PbtFVQIX
I have so many questions 😊. Do you purposely think about/include daily, monthly, yearly (etc.) rituals? And if a child is reluctant to participate what next? My thinking is that rituals are part of the human condition in some capacity, and they are grounding, so homeschooling in a siloed culture calls for some purposeful togetherness and connection. But rituals can also be a source of coercion especially when a child isn't up for it.
Where are YOU in the day? How do you balance being available for pursuit of knowledge and learning partnership with not being "on call" all the time. What does a balance of freedom look like from the perspective of what you do throughout the day I guess?
Where am I in the day, good question! We have a relatively busy week in that my kids attend various groups and have online commitments and see friends and do sport. I wake up early so I can get writing or reading done. They’re not usually up until 9ish unless we’re going somewhere early. Some days we’re out all day. Other days the mornings are busiest because we all have more energy in the morning and I make myself available to whatever they want to do - projects, play, going to the library, etc. I may also plan something or offer an idea of something they might like. I do make a monthly list of potential activities/projects to offer on days when we’re home, but usually they have something they are working on and I support them. Or we plan an outing. If we’re home in the afternoon I try to make some time for me to do work or gardening or housework and they do their own thing independently for a few hours. Sometimes there is sport/theatre/math to go to, or a play date. L spends time with his grandparents one afternoon a week so I can take P to various things. On Friday afternoons we usually have a bunch of kids over to play. So we have quite a predictable weekly routine, with occasional changes. The weekends are more chill, my husband is home (he’s away all week) and I step back a bit and he is more involved with the kids. Or we might do something altogether. Let me know if I missed anything!! I will say that for several years I felt very burnt out. Homeschooling little ones is tough, unless you have a ton of help and support. With older kids and kids who are now much more able to regulate, discuss, engage with their own things - it’s night and day in my experience. Still demanding, but not in the same all-consuming way.
Thanks for the window into your days 🙂. My kids are newly 8 and 5, so a very different season and I've definitely felt some burnout this time of year for the past few years. Less this one though as they are so much better at playing together and moving through conflict without me! I don't consider myself an unschooler in practice, though I inhabit much of the ethos of freedom as it deeply resonates.
Rituals - yes we have seasonal things we do and family traditions. I keep a list of them on an excel sheet and add new things when I feel like it. They mostly come from my own cultural traditions and then some new ones I’ve wanted to start for my family. They are absolutely not compulsory! If my kids don’t wanna join in, I’ll do them myself. Or I might invite a friend over and do them together.. if I notice they never want to participate I’ll make the ritual my own ritual! But usually our traditions are things the kids look forward to and that are enjoyable.
I looooooove this.
I’m currently resenting the state I live in’s requirement to document anything.
I unschool and I don’t want to spend energy placating the government. Aaannd I don’t work for free. lol 😂
yep, it's super annoying because I also find myself having to spin things to make them sound schoolish. Also hear you about working for free!!
I’ve been trying to find out what the legal implications could be for refusing to comply.