As someone who as a teen had sexual and romantic relationships with adults, there is some really triggering things here for me. I have spent the last couple decades returning to the question of consent around these relationships again and again. And what I’ve found is that some of those relationships were truly consensual but a vast majority were not. In a patriarchal and adultist world, as a young femme, I was in fact manipulated in ways that made me believe I was a consenting - that I was even empowered in making certain decisions - when I was not. But, when I was in a relationship with someone in their mid twenties when I was in my mid-teens, it was in fact consensual. I’m not sure where this all fits in or lands with conversations around consent, but I feel like exploring the idea of statutory rape (which, if I had lived in most places in the US, these relationships would have been) is a useful place to explore the idea of consent more. I am personally against statutory rape laws - at least as they are in place now - because they are mostly weaponized in racist, heterosexist and adultist ways on people in consenting relationships, even as they masquerade as “protection” for young people. However, I can think of many situations in which consent of a young person in a sexual or romantic relationship with an adult is highly questionable because of the power dynamics of an adultist society. Of course, the end of all this is the end adultism. In the meantime, while we are in the story in between the old and new, what these kinds of relationships bring forward in us and our society seems like an important and illuminating place to discuss consent and childhood
I had a teen relationship with an older teen that I now recognise was not fully consensual in many ways, and in fact very harmful. So I can to an extent understand this on a personal level. No one explained to me that the power dynamic made it such that I couldn’t really consent. It was definitely a case where my safety should have been prioritised over my apparent autonomy (which wasn’t even actual autonomy bc it was ultimately coercion.) perhaps there are cases when the inherent coercion makes it impossible for consent to exist, and that’s when safety becomes more important.
It’s tricky because all relationships with power dynamics based in differing (and differingly valued) age, race, class, gender, nationality, etc are inherently navigating power dynamics that call into question our ability to consent. And personally, for me, it’s tricky because years later I can look back and say that there was that one relationship where it was a 9 year age gap (between a me a teen and him an adult) and it was, in fact, consensual. I can, in hind sight, clearly see and experience the difference between that relationship and others where I was being manipulated and coerced. I have friends who used to participate in sex work who also have similar kinds of discussions around consent and many who feel that they could not meaningfully consent in their work even as many other prominent leftist voices will say that “sex work is work” like any other under capitalism.
Thanks for the recommendation to check out Rosalia Rivers’s work. And, to be clear, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote in the chapter and I believe in consent strongly with all children, including my own. I was mostly having a raw reaction to a topic “children’s *can* consent” that feels incredibly nuanced and difficult to pin down in my own experiences.
Thanks for saying this. I think people worry that talking about consent-based practice will mean that we open things up to consent around adult-teen relationships but to me, any intimate relationship between teens needs to be looked at from a place of power dynamics and coercion. And consent-based ness is literally the opposite of coercion so I think we need to recognise that there are certain situations (like pretty much any interaction between a child and an adult) where coercion is baked in. And that consent cannot exist in certain places. I don’t talk about intimate relationships because honestly it’s not my area of knowledge or experience and there are so many people already talking about this - like Rosalia Rivera to mention only one. Perhaps I needed to make it more clear that this is absolutely not something children should even be asked to consent to because it’s inherently coercive (not to mention illegal for that very reason).
I like the way you're framing this. I find consent difficult to explain, especially with people whose thinking about children is opposite to this. Maybe some of the confusion is in the difference between consent and responsibility. Some may hear consent advocates saying to let children be completely in charge and responsible for their own lives. As if we won't provide any coaching, advice, or safety precautions. Your examples help clarify that consent is more about listening and taking into account children's feelings and opinions. As an adult, I am free to speak my mind about things, but that doesn't mean I always get what I want! Hopefully, it means that everyone’s wants and needs are considered in making decisions for the family or group. I'm really enjoying reading these posts and learning more ways to think about consent.
Thanks Beth! it can be super tricky because i think so much of it is intuitive, and personal. I like to see consent in a basic sense as coming to a mutual understanding. i like this bc it removes the individualistic aspect while also honouring the self. I think it requires a deep belief that humans can in fact get their needs met, while also respecting and caring for others, and that while conflict is normal there is always, ultimately a way to resolve it where everyone is honoured and seen. Not everyone believes this is actually possible! but i have hope!
Yes, the intuitive thing! These ways of parenting feel natural to me. Even my parents leaned toward this kind of parenting. When someone has great difficulty wrapping their head around it, I don't know where to begin sometimes. Your writing is helping me out words to it. 😊
As someone who as a teen had sexual and romantic relationships with adults, there is some really triggering things here for me. I have spent the last couple decades returning to the question of consent around these relationships again and again. And what I’ve found is that some of those relationships were truly consensual but a vast majority were not. In a patriarchal and adultist world, as a young femme, I was in fact manipulated in ways that made me believe I was a consenting - that I was even empowered in making certain decisions - when I was not. But, when I was in a relationship with someone in their mid twenties when I was in my mid-teens, it was in fact consensual. I’m not sure where this all fits in or lands with conversations around consent, but I feel like exploring the idea of statutory rape (which, if I had lived in most places in the US, these relationships would have been) is a useful place to explore the idea of consent more. I am personally against statutory rape laws - at least as they are in place now - because they are mostly weaponized in racist, heterosexist and adultist ways on people in consenting relationships, even as they masquerade as “protection” for young people. However, I can think of many situations in which consent of a young person in a sexual or romantic relationship with an adult is highly questionable because of the power dynamics of an adultist society. Of course, the end of all this is the end adultism. In the meantime, while we are in the story in between the old and new, what these kinds of relationships bring forward in us and our society seems like an important and illuminating place to discuss consent and childhood
I had a teen relationship with an older teen that I now recognise was not fully consensual in many ways, and in fact very harmful. So I can to an extent understand this on a personal level. No one explained to me that the power dynamic made it such that I couldn’t really consent. It was definitely a case where my safety should have been prioritised over my apparent autonomy (which wasn’t even actual autonomy bc it was ultimately coercion.) perhaps there are cases when the inherent coercion makes it impossible for consent to exist, and that’s when safety becomes more important.
It’s tricky because all relationships with power dynamics based in differing (and differingly valued) age, race, class, gender, nationality, etc are inherently navigating power dynamics that call into question our ability to consent. And personally, for me, it’s tricky because years later I can look back and say that there was that one relationship where it was a 9 year age gap (between a me a teen and him an adult) and it was, in fact, consensual. I can, in hind sight, clearly see and experience the difference between that relationship and others where I was being manipulated and coerced. I have friends who used to participate in sex work who also have similar kinds of discussions around consent and many who feel that they could not meaningfully consent in their work even as many other prominent leftist voices will say that “sex work is work” like any other under capitalism.
Thanks for the recommendation to check out Rosalia Rivers’s work. And, to be clear, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote in the chapter and I believe in consent strongly with all children, including my own. I was mostly having a raw reaction to a topic “children’s *can* consent” that feels incredibly nuanced and difficult to pin down in my own experiences.
It is really nuanced and there’s soooo much that someone could prob write an entire book about only this one topic!
Thanks for saying this. I think people worry that talking about consent-based practice will mean that we open things up to consent around adult-teen relationships but to me, any intimate relationship between teens needs to be looked at from a place of power dynamics and coercion. And consent-based ness is literally the opposite of coercion so I think we need to recognise that there are certain situations (like pretty much any interaction between a child and an adult) where coercion is baked in. And that consent cannot exist in certain places. I don’t talk about intimate relationships because honestly it’s not my area of knowledge or experience and there are so many people already talking about this - like Rosalia Rivera to mention only one. Perhaps I needed to make it more clear that this is absolutely not something children should even be asked to consent to because it’s inherently coercive (not to mention illegal for that very reason).
I like the way you're framing this. I find consent difficult to explain, especially with people whose thinking about children is opposite to this. Maybe some of the confusion is in the difference between consent and responsibility. Some may hear consent advocates saying to let children be completely in charge and responsible for their own lives. As if we won't provide any coaching, advice, or safety precautions. Your examples help clarify that consent is more about listening and taking into account children's feelings and opinions. As an adult, I am free to speak my mind about things, but that doesn't mean I always get what I want! Hopefully, it means that everyone’s wants and needs are considered in making decisions for the family or group. I'm really enjoying reading these posts and learning more ways to think about consent.
Thanks Beth! it can be super tricky because i think so much of it is intuitive, and personal. I like to see consent in a basic sense as coming to a mutual understanding. i like this bc it removes the individualistic aspect while also honouring the self. I think it requires a deep belief that humans can in fact get their needs met, while also respecting and caring for others, and that while conflict is normal there is always, ultimately a way to resolve it where everyone is honoured and seen. Not everyone believes this is actually possible! but i have hope!
Yes, the intuitive thing! These ways of parenting feel natural to me. Even my parents leaned toward this kind of parenting. When someone has great difficulty wrapping their head around it, I don't know where to begin sometimes. Your writing is helping me out words to it. 😊