This was such an interesting conversation and resonated so deeply with me. Thank you Fran and Adele for delving into this. I feel like you pretty much described my life and all my worries/stress around home education, unschooling and trying to work part time.
I love my work as it gives me an intellectual and creative outlet, it also provides a small and unreliable but essential income for our family BUT it also creates stress and takes my attention away from caring for my children. It’s a complicated issue.
Thank you for drawing attention to the MLM type lifestyle stuff that seems to be pretty rife in some homeschooling/world-schooling groups. There does seem to be a fair bit pushing of this image of an amazing lifestyle and then praying on people’s desires to provide for their family.
I found the conversation really thought provoking thank you. So many things came up for me. We are home educating now due to school refusal/ burnout and that’s been tough as definitely wasn’t a choice at the time but now I feel through all my reading and research it’s a really good option for my kids so now it feels like a bit more of a choice ( taking some agency back I suppose in reframing that for myself)
The word neglect really struck me and my fear as I think this is my biggest fear ever of having children that I won’t be good enough etc and that feeds into the idea of neglect. I think as a very black and white often but trying not to be a perfectionist thinker , I find it hard to draw the line between what people even mean by neglect. I’m not sure how to put it into words but I think my fear of being neglectful makes me try to be perfect ?! Something like that.
I’ve had to stop working as a result if home education there’s no way I could do both as my capacity is low I now realise after years of pushing too hard. But that’s meant my husband has had to work a bit more to cover that and there’s still a financial loss.
This conversation really made me ponder that in everything there is a balance a trade off , I feel like that just is the case with everything big and small and this will be the same for home educating . Really interesting, thank you.
I absolutely inhaled this - very timely as I desperately try to get through my work to-do list on this rainy Sunday (I do not work on the days that I'm the home-ed parent so everything has to either get done on a Thursday or at the weekend). For me, the trade off to working and home educating has been chronic stress, exhaustion, an often messy house (and a totally neglected garden), missing out on a LOT of family and friend time, and almost zero time with my husband. It's definitely not something I would recommend, but equally I don't know what else I can do as we need the little bit of money I bring in, and I also love the work I do and wouldn't want to stop doing it. Thanks for this conversation xxx
I was eager to listen to this conversation over my morning coffee and felt grateful I only had to pause the episode a couple of times to meet my kids needs. I made some notes while listening and thought I'd share some of my thoughts and reflections here.
It was refreshing to listen to a conversation I haven't come across much in the homeschool community and something that is often on my own mind. I think a lot of homeschool parents will find this discussion valuable.
Two common messages I have received within the homeschool world is homeschooling is great because it allows you to slow down AND you can work for pay while homeschooling. But, how can we slow down AND work while homeschooling? I have not found a way to do this myself. I have both worked for pay (part time) while homeschooling and now while homeschooling I don't work for pay at all. The entire time, like almost daily even, if only in the back of my mind I am searching for an idea of how to realistically earn a modest income while homeschooling without feeling overwhelmed. We are very fortunate to be able to live off one income, but it does not come without sacrifice on both my partner's end and my own. I think it is Adele in the episode that mentions what one can realistically fit into a human day. I personally have not fit in working for pay and homeschooling successfully into one day. I agree with Fran and Adele that we are pretending it's simple to fit together both caring full time for our children and also working for pay. Not to say no one has found a way to homeschool and work, but I am positive it's not been simple and not without letting something else go. Is it self-care that they let go of? Rest? Are more demands placed on everyone in the family? I don't know, but I do know I cannot do a good job homeschooling while letting go of self-care and I definitely have one kiddo who would not be okay with more demands being placed on them, nor do I want to put more demands on either of my kids.
One final thought was in regards to the part of the conversation where Adele and Fran talk about homeschooling being a choice. I do not disagree with this, however I do feel in some families including my own, homeschooling is a must for some children's mental health. To be honest, while I could make the choice to send my children to school my one child would greatly suffer and we would possibly face school refusal as we did in the past. So in that sense how much is homeschooling really a choice for my family? Do I really have a choice not to find a way to make this path continue to work at least for as long as school doesn't work well for my child(ren)?
A big thank you to both Fran and Adele for having and share this conversation. I really appreciated listening in.
Thank you for engaging so deeply with this. I completely recognize that home education isn't an equal choice for lots of people. I think I may have touched on that in the original post. In the conversation I was probably speaking from my personal experience, which that because my children had always been home educated, I felt completely locked into our choice to do that, regardless of whether it was working for our family. Sometimes we need to evaluate where we do have choices (even within home education) to work out how we can get our needs met. And we might need to give give ourselves permission to do that.
Thanks Adele for your reply. I agree and I think that's a good reminder that it's important to step back and ask ourselves 'Is this still working?' and adjust when we can. And as our children grow the family's needs shift so that assessment of what is working and what is no longer working is a continued practice when we remember to do so. This is a bit of how I think about it.
I hope my comment didn't come off as a critique in anyway.
Thank you Ashley, and YES to all those points. It is really hard. Perhaps some people out there are slowing down AND working for pay AND homeschooling and living their best life but I can't do it all - I find it absolutely overwhelming and when I've tried, it has led to serious burnout. I have to be super realistic about how much I can do ontop of homeschooling. And yes - HS is def not a choice for many of us. Personally, I don't think it's a choice for one of my kids, I think right now, it's absolutely a necessity. But what frustrates me is this exact lack of choice - not everyone is willing to give up an income to homeschool a child that cannot go to school, and that's why (and i think i say this in the pod) homeschooling CANNOT be the ONLY viable option to school. It just can't! We need more! That is the frustrating part for me. I know there are children who will be harmed in school, and who can't afford to pay for a private setting, and whose parents can't homeschool - those are the families I feel that we are selling short. But that's a whole other conversation of course... I really appreciate you taking the time to listen and write this Ashley!
Fran - I'm often talking about this with others stating that there really must be more options available for families. School doesn't work for enough children that other options have to become more of a thing. I used to always hear people talk about how most children do well in the school system, especially when I was in teachers college. However, after spending a number of years in the school system as a teacher and then as someone working at a nonprofit that helped children who were behind in their reading I could easily see school wasn't meeting many children's needs. The answer isn't simple and we're all busy working in one way or another during the day to do much about it I suppose. Grateful for people such as yourself that discuss this and raise this issue and grateful for those people out there who have managed to make some difference in providing another option.
Totally. We need to do more - I mean, it shouldn't really be up to individual people but until our local governments take note it will need to be people coming together, and talking about/imagining/creating better options. And i think even those of us who can't actually be building can support in so many ways, right? So I'm hopeful! It just might not happen in our lifetimes..
I love how you mention the sacrifice of both you and your partner. This has come up within my friend group lately. The partner earning the bulk of the money starts to feel a bit of burnout, wants to consider a change, but feels like they can't because the family needs their income in order for homeschooling to really work. It can feel like a lot of pressure.
Thanks. I think this is it. My husband has had to work more to make me staying home possible and that comes at a cost for sure. And I worry about the sustainability of this too.
Thanks. Yea, this is how I experience our ‘choice’ to home educate. I don’t truly feel like it’s much of a choice and that’s not to say I don’t enjoy it because I do, but I also feel it’s something I must do for the sake of at least my one child.
I’m excited to listen to this one! I’ve worked from home for 7 years. At the moment I’m tired. My job requires creativity and being semi-inspiring, and I feel neither right now. It also requires constantly adapting to industry changes every 6-9 months. I love that we can afford to contribute to retirement. I love that we can afford to go on a vacation and do an amusement park once a year, that our kids can do some extracurriculars without me stressing about money. My husband works 4 days a week (or so, depending on overtime), and I work 10-15 hours a week. It works right now. I need the stability that comes from two incomes in order to homeschool, for my mental health, so I keep on keeping on (despite my recent “wouldn’t it be nice to just stay home” feelings).
Yeah I’d love to know what you think! I totally get why people want/have to work while homeschooling, we discuss the way that it’s talked about and promoted as a viable lifestyle choice for all, and the ways people aren’t transparent about what is being dropped, more than the actual doing of it.
So having listened to the podcast, I have a few thoughts...
1) I think people don't talk about this because they fear being told they are neglecting their kids. Everyone has different definitions of the amount of time unschooling requires and what neglect would be.
2) Working homeschool parents are weighing things all the time, asking questions like - would they really be better off at school? Would school not also be neglect if it's not meeting their true educational needs? Would they be better off following their interests on Youtube and Tiktok on their own part of the time (not all of the time) than sitting in a classroom for hours (I've seen so many comments with people saying they learned so much more on Tiktok than in all their years of school)? Would the best I can give at home, while needing to work part-time, not be as good or better than school?
3) I used to be one of those people who thought this was the dream life. I used to make a lot of money "passively", on articles that I worked hard to write. After spending 20-30 hours a week working for nothing, often from 11pm-2am, for 6-12 months, I could then work 10 hours a week & my income did eventually increase to year by year from 35k to 50k to 80k. But the industry is SO volatile lately, I would never ever sell people on it as the best path. In fact, Google just did a massive update that cut my income by 30-40% - overnight, for no good reason. It happened to work out for us, but it's not a guaranteed path.
4) I'm not ok having no savings and no retirement. I don't think that's a good thing to model for our kids, and I don't think it's worth the trade. So if it came to it, we would need to look at other options outside the home.
5) Every working homeschool parent is compromising on something. I'm an introvert with anxiety working part-time from home with five kids, many of whom are neurodivergent to varying degrees. I'm tired. My kids do spend a good amount of time on screens pursuing their individual interests, and honestly learning so much. But up until recently, my youngest wasn't interested in screens very much at all, and it was VERY hard to keep working and care for her and meet everyone else's needs.
6) We are trying a secular co-op next year to try to meet more needs, especially connection with like-minded people. My youngest has asked about school, and she might try it come first grade in a year and a half.
7) I don't know how working full-time and unschooling are compatible. Maybe some people are super human and making it work, but I have no idea how I personally would do that AND unschool AND manage a household. I'm struggling to fit in 10-15 hours a week with my husband working 4 days a week and watching the kids for a chunk of time so I can write.
I guess all in all, the big "neglect" word is a very real fear. Judgement within the unschooling community is a big thing, so I try to stay in my lane, make the best decisions I can for my kids and our family, one year at a time, and decide what is "enough" for su. I think that's all any of us can do. For those looking for help, the Working Homeschool Mom's Facebook group has a lot of great support and info!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts June! It’s a big messy complex conversation and it’s going to be different for everyone. I have found I simply cannot work into the night or run myself ragged because the result is I become very unwell and everyone suffers. I’m not one to be able to function on 5 hours of sleep every night. We are very lucky to have domestic help, but that won’t be the case anymore soon and our entire lifestyle is going to take a massive shift once we move back to the US. And thanks for mentioning retirement/savings - this too, is something I’ve been thinking about lots. The way homeschooling means women often take a hit and end up being over reliant on their spouse financially - that makes me super uncomfortable.
Yes to that last part! I read a book called The Feminine Mistake a few years ago that really changed how I see being dependent on your partner financially, even if things are good now, they sadly may not always be.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The word 'neglect' is something any parent wouldn't want to be associated with when it comes to their parenting. And yea not everyone is going to agree on what is considered neglect. After reading your comment I am thinking about how I don't hear many people talking about how sending your child to school could be a form of neglect. I think that's how I would feel in a way. The school system wasn't able to meet my child's needs and had a negative impact on their overall well being so I wouldn't feel like a 'good parent' if I sent my child back into the school system. I guess therefore, choosing to not work for pay and stay home to home educate both my children felt like a somewhat easy decision because sending my child to school felt cruel and wrong. I hope I am not pulling us away too far from the initial conversation and I realize I am getting into my personal experience and not everyone who home educates is in this position or even feels the same way. Thankfully school can meet some children's needs.
I do think school can meet some children’s needs - definitely not anti-school altogether. But for some parents, I think it feels like neglect to send their kids somewhere I know they would be unhappy (or worse - unsafe) and bored, when they are happy pursuing their interests at home, with some parental involvement, but maybe not as much as some unschoolers would say is “enough”, because the parents have to work.
Yes, this is how I feel as well. I'd feel terrible if my one kiddo especially had to go to school. And that's a possibility if we cannot continue to live off one income like we do now. And while my kids may have some days that are not too fun or interesting at home they still continue to choose to home educate and I continue to believe it the better option for them both. I'm happy to have this space to chat a bit about it, because like you said if we share in other spaces on or offline we could be viewed by some as not doing enough which would be very hard to hear.
This was such an interesting conversation and resonated so deeply with me. Thank you Fran and Adele for delving into this. I feel like you pretty much described my life and all my worries/stress around home education, unschooling and trying to work part time.
I love my work as it gives me an intellectual and creative outlet, it also provides a small and unreliable but essential income for our family BUT it also creates stress and takes my attention away from caring for my children. It’s a complicated issue.
Thank you for drawing attention to the MLM type lifestyle stuff that seems to be pretty rife in some homeschooling/world-schooling groups. There does seem to be a fair bit pushing of this image of an amazing lifestyle and then praying on people’s desires to provide for their family.
I found the conversation really thought provoking thank you. So many things came up for me. We are home educating now due to school refusal/ burnout and that’s been tough as definitely wasn’t a choice at the time but now I feel through all my reading and research it’s a really good option for my kids so now it feels like a bit more of a choice ( taking some agency back I suppose in reframing that for myself)
The word neglect really struck me and my fear as I think this is my biggest fear ever of having children that I won’t be good enough etc and that feeds into the idea of neglect. I think as a very black and white often but trying not to be a perfectionist thinker , I find it hard to draw the line between what people even mean by neglect. I’m not sure how to put it into words but I think my fear of being neglectful makes me try to be perfect ?! Something like that.
I’ve had to stop working as a result if home education there’s no way I could do both as my capacity is low I now realise after years of pushing too hard. But that’s meant my husband has had to work a bit more to cover that and there’s still a financial loss.
This conversation really made me ponder that in everything there is a balance a trade off , I feel like that just is the case with everything big and small and this will be the same for home educating . Really interesting, thank you.
I absolutely inhaled this - very timely as I desperately try to get through my work to-do list on this rainy Sunday (I do not work on the days that I'm the home-ed parent so everything has to either get done on a Thursday or at the weekend). For me, the trade off to working and home educating has been chronic stress, exhaustion, an often messy house (and a totally neglected garden), missing out on a LOT of family and friend time, and almost zero time with my husband. It's definitely not something I would recommend, but equally I don't know what else I can do as we need the little bit of money I bring in, and I also love the work I do and wouldn't want to stop doing it. Thanks for this conversation xxx
I was eager to listen to this conversation over my morning coffee and felt grateful I only had to pause the episode a couple of times to meet my kids needs. I made some notes while listening and thought I'd share some of my thoughts and reflections here.
It was refreshing to listen to a conversation I haven't come across much in the homeschool community and something that is often on my own mind. I think a lot of homeschool parents will find this discussion valuable.
Two common messages I have received within the homeschool world is homeschooling is great because it allows you to slow down AND you can work for pay while homeschooling. But, how can we slow down AND work while homeschooling? I have not found a way to do this myself. I have both worked for pay (part time) while homeschooling and now while homeschooling I don't work for pay at all. The entire time, like almost daily even, if only in the back of my mind I am searching for an idea of how to realistically earn a modest income while homeschooling without feeling overwhelmed. We are very fortunate to be able to live off one income, but it does not come without sacrifice on both my partner's end and my own. I think it is Adele in the episode that mentions what one can realistically fit into a human day. I personally have not fit in working for pay and homeschooling successfully into one day. I agree with Fran and Adele that we are pretending it's simple to fit together both caring full time for our children and also working for pay. Not to say no one has found a way to homeschool and work, but I am positive it's not been simple and not without letting something else go. Is it self-care that they let go of? Rest? Are more demands placed on everyone in the family? I don't know, but I do know I cannot do a good job homeschooling while letting go of self-care and I definitely have one kiddo who would not be okay with more demands being placed on them, nor do I want to put more demands on either of my kids.
One final thought was in regards to the part of the conversation where Adele and Fran talk about homeschooling being a choice. I do not disagree with this, however I do feel in some families including my own, homeschooling is a must for some children's mental health. To be honest, while I could make the choice to send my children to school my one child would greatly suffer and we would possibly face school refusal as we did in the past. So in that sense how much is homeschooling really a choice for my family? Do I really have a choice not to find a way to make this path continue to work at least for as long as school doesn't work well for my child(ren)?
A big thank you to both Fran and Adele for having and share this conversation. I really appreciated listening in.
Thank you for engaging so deeply with this. I completely recognize that home education isn't an equal choice for lots of people. I think I may have touched on that in the original post. In the conversation I was probably speaking from my personal experience, which that because my children had always been home educated, I felt completely locked into our choice to do that, regardless of whether it was working for our family. Sometimes we need to evaluate where we do have choices (even within home education) to work out how we can get our needs met. And we might need to give give ourselves permission to do that.
Thanks Adele for your reply. I agree and I think that's a good reminder that it's important to step back and ask ourselves 'Is this still working?' and adjust when we can. And as our children grow the family's needs shift so that assessment of what is working and what is no longer working is a continued practice when we remember to do so. This is a bit of how I think about it.
I hope my comment didn't come off as a critique in anyway.
Thank you Ashley, and YES to all those points. It is really hard. Perhaps some people out there are slowing down AND working for pay AND homeschooling and living their best life but I can't do it all - I find it absolutely overwhelming and when I've tried, it has led to serious burnout. I have to be super realistic about how much I can do ontop of homeschooling. And yes - HS is def not a choice for many of us. Personally, I don't think it's a choice for one of my kids, I think right now, it's absolutely a necessity. But what frustrates me is this exact lack of choice - not everyone is willing to give up an income to homeschool a child that cannot go to school, and that's why (and i think i say this in the pod) homeschooling CANNOT be the ONLY viable option to school. It just can't! We need more! That is the frustrating part for me. I know there are children who will be harmed in school, and who can't afford to pay for a private setting, and whose parents can't homeschool - those are the families I feel that we are selling short. But that's a whole other conversation of course... I really appreciate you taking the time to listen and write this Ashley!
Fran - I'm often talking about this with others stating that there really must be more options available for families. School doesn't work for enough children that other options have to become more of a thing. I used to always hear people talk about how most children do well in the school system, especially when I was in teachers college. However, after spending a number of years in the school system as a teacher and then as someone working at a nonprofit that helped children who were behind in their reading I could easily see school wasn't meeting many children's needs. The answer isn't simple and we're all busy working in one way or another during the day to do much about it I suppose. Grateful for people such as yourself that discuss this and raise this issue and grateful for those people out there who have managed to make some difference in providing another option.
Totally. We need to do more - I mean, it shouldn't really be up to individual people but until our local governments take note it will need to be people coming together, and talking about/imagining/creating better options. And i think even those of us who can't actually be building can support in so many ways, right? So I'm hopeful! It just might not happen in our lifetimes..
Also hopeful and thinking it may not happen in our lifetime.
I love how you mention the sacrifice of both you and your partner. This has come up within my friend group lately. The partner earning the bulk of the money starts to feel a bit of burnout, wants to consider a change, but feels like they can't because the family needs their income in order for homeschooling to really work. It can feel like a lot of pressure.
This is definitely how my husband is feeling the past year or two. We compromised with him dropping a day, so my income is definitely necessary.
Thanks. I think this is it. My husband has had to work more to make me staying home possible and that comes at a cost for sure. And I worry about the sustainability of this too.
I love how you frame it: is homeschooling really a choice or is it a necessity for some children.
Thanks. Yea, this is how I experience our ‘choice’ to home educate. I don’t truly feel like it’s much of a choice and that’s not to say I don’t enjoy it because I do, but I also feel it’s something I must do for the sake of at least my one child.
I’m excited to listen to this one! I’ve worked from home for 7 years. At the moment I’m tired. My job requires creativity and being semi-inspiring, and I feel neither right now. It also requires constantly adapting to industry changes every 6-9 months. I love that we can afford to contribute to retirement. I love that we can afford to go on a vacation and do an amusement park once a year, that our kids can do some extracurriculars without me stressing about money. My husband works 4 days a week (or so, depending on overtime), and I work 10-15 hours a week. It works right now. I need the stability that comes from two incomes in order to homeschool, for my mental health, so I keep on keeping on (despite my recent “wouldn’t it be nice to just stay home” feelings).
Yeah I’d love to know what you think! I totally get why people want/have to work while homeschooling, we discuss the way that it’s talked about and promoted as a viable lifestyle choice for all, and the ways people aren’t transparent about what is being dropped, more than the actual doing of it.
So having listened to the podcast, I have a few thoughts...
1) I think people don't talk about this because they fear being told they are neglecting their kids. Everyone has different definitions of the amount of time unschooling requires and what neglect would be.
2) Working homeschool parents are weighing things all the time, asking questions like - would they really be better off at school? Would school not also be neglect if it's not meeting their true educational needs? Would they be better off following their interests on Youtube and Tiktok on their own part of the time (not all of the time) than sitting in a classroom for hours (I've seen so many comments with people saying they learned so much more on Tiktok than in all their years of school)? Would the best I can give at home, while needing to work part-time, not be as good or better than school?
3) I used to be one of those people who thought this was the dream life. I used to make a lot of money "passively", on articles that I worked hard to write. After spending 20-30 hours a week working for nothing, often from 11pm-2am, for 6-12 months, I could then work 10 hours a week & my income did eventually increase to year by year from 35k to 50k to 80k. But the industry is SO volatile lately, I would never ever sell people on it as the best path. In fact, Google just did a massive update that cut my income by 30-40% - overnight, for no good reason. It happened to work out for us, but it's not a guaranteed path.
4) I'm not ok having no savings and no retirement. I don't think that's a good thing to model for our kids, and I don't think it's worth the trade. So if it came to it, we would need to look at other options outside the home.
5) Every working homeschool parent is compromising on something. I'm an introvert with anxiety working part-time from home with five kids, many of whom are neurodivergent to varying degrees. I'm tired. My kids do spend a good amount of time on screens pursuing their individual interests, and honestly learning so much. But up until recently, my youngest wasn't interested in screens very much at all, and it was VERY hard to keep working and care for her and meet everyone else's needs.
6) We are trying a secular co-op next year to try to meet more needs, especially connection with like-minded people. My youngest has asked about school, and she might try it come first grade in a year and a half.
7) I don't know how working full-time and unschooling are compatible. Maybe some people are super human and making it work, but I have no idea how I personally would do that AND unschool AND manage a household. I'm struggling to fit in 10-15 hours a week with my husband working 4 days a week and watching the kids for a chunk of time so I can write.
I guess all in all, the big "neglect" word is a very real fear. Judgement within the unschooling community is a big thing, so I try to stay in my lane, make the best decisions I can for my kids and our family, one year at a time, and decide what is "enough" for su. I think that's all any of us can do. For those looking for help, the Working Homeschool Mom's Facebook group has a lot of great support and info!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts June! It’s a big messy complex conversation and it’s going to be different for everyone. I have found I simply cannot work into the night or run myself ragged because the result is I become very unwell and everyone suffers. I’m not one to be able to function on 5 hours of sleep every night. We are very lucky to have domestic help, but that won’t be the case anymore soon and our entire lifestyle is going to take a massive shift once we move back to the US. And thanks for mentioning retirement/savings - this too, is something I’ve been thinking about lots. The way homeschooling means women often take a hit and end up being over reliant on their spouse financially - that makes me super uncomfortable.
Yes to that last part! I read a book called The Feminine Mistake a few years ago that really changed how I see being dependent on your partner financially, even if things are good now, they sadly may not always be.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The word 'neglect' is something any parent wouldn't want to be associated with when it comes to their parenting. And yea not everyone is going to agree on what is considered neglect. After reading your comment I am thinking about how I don't hear many people talking about how sending your child to school could be a form of neglect. I think that's how I would feel in a way. The school system wasn't able to meet my child's needs and had a negative impact on their overall well being so I wouldn't feel like a 'good parent' if I sent my child back into the school system. I guess therefore, choosing to not work for pay and stay home to home educate both my children felt like a somewhat easy decision because sending my child to school felt cruel and wrong. I hope I am not pulling us away too far from the initial conversation and I realize I am getting into my personal experience and not everyone who home educates is in this position or even feels the same way. Thankfully school can meet some children's needs.
I do think school can meet some children’s needs - definitely not anti-school altogether. But for some parents, I think it feels like neglect to send their kids somewhere I know they would be unhappy (or worse - unsafe) and bored, when they are happy pursuing their interests at home, with some parental involvement, but maybe not as much as some unschoolers would say is “enough”, because the parents have to work.
Yes, this is how I feel as well. I'd feel terrible if my one kiddo especially had to go to school. And that's a possibility if we cannot continue to live off one income like we do now. And while my kids may have some days that are not too fun or interesting at home they still continue to choose to home educate and I continue to believe it the better option for them both. I'm happy to have this space to chat a bit about it, because like you said if we share in other spaces on or offline we could be viewed by some as not doing enough which would be very hard to hear.